[Workin' Mama]

Quote:James wrote - - just kidding, its case by case. I asked out Steven Anderson from Phoenix, AZ.

James, what did Steven Anderson say? Are you still dating? LOL

[Workin' Mama]

(03-19-2018, 03:45 PM)myotch Wrote: Biblically speaking, dating didn’t happen.  Courtship wouldn’t even describe the ancient norms.

There is no single right way to start a relationship.  The Bible and history books can only give us snapshots of what was culturally practiced at certain points in the past.

Oh, but I can think of some great examples of Biblical Courtship that would fit right into the modern IFB church! What are you talking about? Times may change, but the Lord's ways never change. The Bible clearly tells us how courting couples and married people are to conduct themselves!

Adam and Eve: Meet each other in a tropical garden, and wander around in the nude until one of you strikes up a conservation with a slithery reptile, and then together, plunge humanity into a catastrophe. Only after God gives you proper clothing will you discover the joys of "knowing" each other.

Lamech, Ada, and Zillah: Marry two women, kill a man, and then make up a song about it to sing to your wives.

Noah & sons: Don't bother to mention your wife's name. Ever.

Sarah and Abraham: Marry your half-brother, and then encourage him to sleep with the kitchen help because you can't get pregnant.

Isaac and Rebekah: Make sure you marry a relative, and make sure she's good at watering camels. Actually, you're not capable of handling this, so just let your father's servant go find her.

Jacob, Leah, and Rachel: Marry your two first cousins, and sleep with your wives' servants, too. The only downside is that you will have to work for your creepy-ass uncle for 20 years.

Moses and Zipporah (actually I love this story!): Murder a man who's oppressing your people, and run away to the wilderness. When you finally arrive at a well, exhausted and thirsty, you meet seven sisters who are there to water their father's sheep. Then a bunch of male shepherds show up with their sheep, and try to chase the girls' sheep away so that their own sheep can drink first. You beat the assholes up, and then roll the stone away and help water the girls' sheep. The oldest sister comes over to express her appreciation to you.
"Hi, my name is Moses," you say. "What's yours?"
"Zipporah," she answers, glancing down shyly.
Quickly, you look down and check your jeans to make sure the zipper is up.

Ruth and Boaz: Propose to your husband in the middle of the night in a wheat field, after having slept next to him for awhile, unbeknownst to him. While you're at it, ask him to help you buy back the family farm.

David and Michal: Kill a bunch of your nation's enemies (I think 100), and cut off a piece off each of their pe**ses. Take said body parts to her dad, and exchange them for your bride. When your new father-in-law later decides to kill you for unrelated reasons, and your wife risks her life to save yours, run off and abandon her for years. In fact, forget that she exists, until she marries someone else and has kids with him. Then take her back by force, and later have her sons murdered to avenge the wrongdoings of your father-in-law. When she dares to make fun of you for pretending to be a godly man, paint her in the history books as a terrible person.

Abigail and David: As a beautiful young woman married to an ugly old jerk, keep your eye on the handsome young outlaw and his band of merry men who are hanging out in the wilderness near you. When he gets mad at your husband and decides to come kill every male in your household, take him several donkey-loads of food, and prophesy about how he will someday be king.

David and Bethsheba: I'm not even going there . . . just can't stomach it right now.

Esther and Xerxes: Get dragged off to the palace by soldiers, along with a bunch of other beautiful women. Spend a year taking baths in olive oil to make you even more beautiful (or something like that). Then you will be forced to sleep with a pagan king, who will decide whether he wants to make you queen or just keep you as a concubine. Oh, and don't forget that he can kill you if you walk into his office uninvited.

Hosea and Gomer: Marry a prostitute.

Ananias and Saphira: Couples who lie together, die together. But hey, at least she was a submissive wife! We wimmin folk should try to be more like Saphira.

Priscilla and Aquila: Work alongside each other in the same profession as equal partners. Then, participate equally in ministry together, including teaching important doctrines to Apollos, who will also become a prominent leader in the church. You will be mentioned 6 times in the Bible, 3 times as "Priscilla and Aquila," and 3 times as "Aquila and Priscilla," but always as a couple.

Jesus and the Church: Arm your bride with the armor of God and the sword of the Spirit. Tell her that she stands on a rock. Warn the devil that the "gates of hell" can't stand against her.

This, my friends, is a summary of biblical courtship and marriage.

[myotch]

There’s nothing unsloppy about marriage in the Bible. It can be amusing that a lot of people in the Bible would have “It’s complicated” as a Facebook relationship status.

There’s beautiful stuff there, too. It can’t all be boiled down to absurdity.

[WalrusWrangler]

Workin' Mama Wrote:Ruth and Boaz: Propose to your husband in the middle of the night in a wheat field, after having slept next to him for awhile, unbeknownst to him. While you're at it, ask him to help you buy back the family farm.

Great summary! I lol'd at a few of them. I love to throw Ruth and Boaz at people who say that the woman shouldn't pursue the man. Some weakly try to say, "Well Boaz initiated it by telling his workers to leave extra food for Ruth." But no. Boaz was being nice, maybe showing his interest, but Ruth basically proposed to him before they had even spoken.

[James33]

(03-18-2018, 07:04 PM)Workin\ Mama Wrote: First of all, I really appreciate that fact that a single man would say that it's OK for women to ask men out on dates and so forth. I agree that women "totally can" do the asking, and should feel free to do so, but I think there is still some social stigma associated with it.

As a man, I just want to say I am so thankful we live in a culture where it is socially acceptable for a woman to ask out a man. It makes life easier for us (sorry hahaha). 

Quote:They also baffle me -- dating always seemed like a complicated game with a bunch of unspoken rules and expectations that were constantly changing (probably one reason I didn't date much!)

This is what I'm going to get a little more indepth on - dating is a game, the difference is how each person plays the game. 

Quote:1. Dating costs money. If a girl asks a boy to go on a date with her, and he says yes, does she buy the movie tickets and pick up the tab at the restaurant? Do they "go Dutch"?  Would it be socially acceptable for a woman to invite a man on a date that is free or relatively inexpensive, such as a hike in the woods or a picnic in the park or a home-cooked meal? Women often judge the men they date for being "cheap" -- as in, not spending enough money a the date. One time a male acquaintance of mine went on a first date with a woman, and it was also the last date because he tried use a coupon to pay for part of the meal (it was at some fancy expensive restaurant, and the coupon would have only covered a small portion of the cost anyways). The guy was a jerk for other reasons so I don't blame her for not going out with him again, but I don't think it's fair to judge someone for trying to save a few dollars (he was a full time student with a mountain of debt, for crying out loud).
     The custom of men paying for dates, dates back to a time when single young women often lived at home with their parents and didn't have a job, and young men needed to prove their ability as a provider, hence men spending money on women was part of the courtship ritual. In our modern society, men and women are both able to get good jobs, and men and women both struggle financially at times. I think modern dating needs to reflect this.

Whoever asks who should be the one to pay for the date, IMO. Some hold to a traditional view that the man should pay for everything on the first date - I don't see that being wrong necessarily. I do see it being wrong if its "EXPECTED" rather than doing it out of a "want". The man in the date should not EXPECT anything in return for paying for the date and the woman in the date should not EXPECT the man to pay for the date. No expectations on the first date on both parties. 

I get what you are saying about modern dating but some might find the old-fashion way... cute (I have no better terms to use here.) 

I also want to add that neither one should be adamant in this part of the date. No one should come out as a misogynistic man nor a radical feminist when deciding who pays for the date. 

Quote:2. What about future dates? Suppose she asks him out, and he says yes, and they both really enjoy the first date. Does he expect her to ask him out again for the second date, and any subsequent dates? Does he bat his eyelids and gush about what a wonderful time he had, just hoping in his little heart that she will say, "I'd like to see you again some time, John."  Or does he say, "Jane, this was great. Let's do it again some time."
     I'm being kind of sarcastic here -- but I'm still not sure what it would look like. I think the ideal thing would NOT be a simple reversal of gender roles, but rather a more egalitarian culture, where men and women would both feel comfortable expressing their hopes and desires to each other.

This is where the game really begins in my opinion. One party may not ask the other party out on a second date because he or she is fearful of several different reasons: rejection, looking needy/clingly, etc. I agree with you that both should just be comfortable in expressing it but even in the secular world that is not the case. 

Quote:3. How would the trend of women asking men out influence other aspects of the relationship, assuming the couple stays together? Who proposes marriage? Who initiates kissing? Who initiates sex?

From my experience, I can tell from the first date who is the stronger one in the relationship. Usually whoever leads in the first three dates will most likely be the alpha in the relationship. Unless one of them is batsh*t crazy like the girl from Gone Girl.

Quote:4. How would it affect the likelihood of men asking women out? Would men, as a group, come to expect that women take the initiative? How would this affect women who are introverts, and women who have been raised with the cultural expectation that men take the initiative?

At first guys will appreciate how much easier life is. Now we no longer have to be the only ones to ask a lady out on a date, now we can expect getting asked out! 

and then... the reality will set in. the guys that don't get asked out in their life will realize even more that no one likes them. 

Quote:5. How would we get there? I think a lot of single women would like to ask men out, but are afraid that doing so (in of itself) would turn men off.

Honestly speaking, as a man, if a hot girl asked me out- it ain't turning me off. 

okay even more honestly speaking, if a girl had the courage to ask me out, I will still go on a date with her.

okay even more honest honestly speaking, if would only turn me off if she is batsh*t crazy. 

disclaimer: I hope my post doesn't make me sound like an asshole, I was just trying to be as real as possible, speaking from a millennial guy's perspective. I also think the dating world (secular) has become sh*tier with tinder and bumble, etc.

[Dr. Jezebel]

James33 Wrote:I also think the dating world (secular) has become sh*tier with tinder and bumble, etc.

I don't know what secular dating was like before, since I've only ever done secular dating with Tinder. That said, I've had mostly good experiences. In fact, Tinder helped me hone my ability to trust my gut instincts after years of Fundamentalism telling me my heart was deceitful.

People with the Martin Shkreli smirk are arrogant pricks the majority of the time. Swipe left. People with cold, dead eyes are devoid of empathy. Swipe left! People who demand instant responses to messages and get offended because you have a life and won't make them the center of it are self-entitled douchebags. Unmatch. People who immediately jump in with that they want to do to you sexually don't respect boundaries. Unmatch.

For me, in my situation coming out of nearly 13 years of marriage and a lifetime of Fundamentalism, Tinder was a fantastic learning tool. 3/4 Tinder matches I ended up dating are still part of my life in some capacity. One is my fiance, one is a paramour, and one is a sweet friend.

All that said, I can see how Tinder would be frustrating for someone who doesn't need to learn how to navigate the real world.

[James33]

(03-21-2018, 05:36 AM)Dr. Jezebel Wrote:

James33 Wrote:I also think the dating world (secular) has become sh*tier with tinder and bumble, etc.

I don't know what secular dating was like before, since I've only ever done secular dating with Tinder. That said, I've had mostly good experiences. In fact, Tinder helped me hone my ability to trust my gut instincts after years of Fundamentalism telling me my heart was deceitful.

People with the Martin Shkreli smirk are arrogant pricks the majority of the time. Swipe left. People with cold, dead eyes are devoid of empathy. Swipe left! People who demand instant responses to messages and get offended because you have a life and won't make them the center of it are self-entitled douchebags. Unmatch. People who immediately jump in with that they want to do to you sexually don't respect boundaries. Unmatch.

For me, in my situation coming out of nearly 13 years of marriage and a lifetime of Fundamentalism, Tinder was a fantastic learning tool. 3/4 Tinder matches I ended up dating are still part of my life in some capacity. One is my fiance, one is a paramour, and one is a sweet friend.

All that said, I can see how Tinder would be frustrating for someone who doesn't need to learn how to navigate the real world.

I don't deny that one can find success on Tinder or Bumble.

What I also can't deny is the fact that these dating apps - most use it for hookups or one-night stands. It has made the dating process faster and fast-paced (which some may enjoy). Looks and appearance has been emphasized even more. It has removed the actual concept of actually asking someone out on a date (again, some may enjoy this as well). People can get addicted to this rather than an actual relationship or lose the ability to make actual relationships. I got more but ran out of time.

[EnlightenedMK]

I actually asked my husband out... worked well for us.


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