[myotch]

(11-28-2017, 01:08 PM)Woke Up Wrote: Myotch:

I'm sorry if you took my question as me trying to stir up doubt...

No worries.  This board attracts a lot of people from all over the religious and non-religious and anti-religious maps.  I apologize if my spidey-senses were mis-tingling, but I thought there was slight scent of agnostic "evangelism" to a couple of your posts. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I just try to see what people are up to.

[leo the lamb]

Myotch, I find it curious that you would sense a hint of doubt-sowing in WokeUp's post. As a doubter I saw it as a hopeful 'what-if', or maybe a gentle challenge directed inward as well as out. As someone who believed that Scripture can only/best be grasped via the Spirit's revelation, I even now can't help considering it a possibility that I might find faith again if I read the Bible without preconceptions (to whatever extent possible).

(11-28-2017, 04:23 PM)First Time Caller Wrote: But, more than that, I have tried to make scripture less personal, if that makes sense.

FTC (FTC!), I think that entertaining the idea that "every verse is not directed at me" is an important step on the path to more objective truth-seeking, and mental freedom for that matter.

Is the Bible a book of truth(s), or is it a collection of facts and commandments? Shall I read it in the black and white that I see with my eyes, or see it in living color with my mind and spirit? I think it's possible to do the latter even if one never believes the Bible to be God's word (but how much more if one does believe?).

[myotch]

You know, Leo, I owe Woke an unconditional apology. I reread the OP, and it was nothing that I had “read into it”.

Woke - my full apologies.

I have only heard similar questions posed by skeptics who were focusing on the fantastical sections that use mythological language or child-of-destiny themes. I’ve often tried to look at the Bible through fresh eyes, and it’s always been a learning experience to the better.

[JustMe]

(11-25-2017, 12:00 AM)Woke Up Wrote: What would happen if you decided to read your Bible as if you had never once heard a sermon or had any prior teaching on the Bible whatsoever.

How much clearer would your understanding of it be?

When I left Fundamentalism or started to, I began reading my Bible as an outside person. It wasn't easy, but I began to study it in the context that it had been written (I know. Shocking concept.), and I was amazed by how much it warns against legalism and the very things Fundamentalism is based.

[EnlightenedMK]

(11-29-2017, 11:02 AM)Natalie Wrote:

(11-25-2017, 12:00 AM)Woke Up Wrote: What would happen if you decided to read your Bible as if you had never once heard a sermon or had any prior teaching on the Bible whatsoever.

How much clearer would your understanding of it be?

When I left Fundamentalism or started to, I began reading my Bible as an outside person. It wasn't easy, but I began to study it in the context that it had been written (I know. Shocking concept.), and I was amazed by how much it warns against legalism and the very things Fundamentalism is based.

Right?


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[Fyre]

I did this a few years back and somehow ended up becoming a dreaded Calvinist. I honestly expected to become either very "liberal" in theology or leave evangelicalism all together, But, here I am, reformed.

[Woke Up]

(11-29-2017, 07:37 AM)myotch Wrote: You know, Leo, I owe Woke an unconditional apology.  I reread the OP, and it was nothing that I had “read into it”.

Woke - my full apologies.

I have only heard similar questions posed by skeptics who were focusing on the fantastical sections that use mythological language or child-of-destiny themes.  I’ve often tried to look at the Bible through fresh eyes, and it’s always been a learning experience to the better.

Apology accepted, though not necessary...

When I posted those few posts, I was going through a mental torrent from something I had just found out about an x from several years ago. I was hurting deeply and probably sounded confused. I was also feeling pretty darn "as low as dirt". The man was an emotional abuser back when I knew him and he ended up with his "perfect little wife"...which is what he always needed anyway. I was never good enough for him and when I found out some things it threw me into the past, which is NEVER a good place to visit mentally. (At least not for me.)

The man I married is completely opposite of that jerk. But, sadly, that jerk is a pastor of a Fundy church now....Serving God as only he knows how to do.

God spared me from a life with him.

[Ricardo]

It has been a long process for me.

When I first found out that the last 13 verses of Mark were added decades or centuries after the fact, I felt led to research how the books were written, how they were copied over and over, how they were selected and how they were eventually anointed with the "Word of God" moniker.

First I felt angry at my ministers who KNOWINGLY misused II Tim 3:16 to claim inerrancy for their particular list of books. (That verse is in the Mormon bible, the Adventist bible and the Jehovah's Witnesses bible, as well as the Catholic and Orthodox bibles.)

Especially since Theopnestos, the Greek word commonly translated as "Inspired" is hard to translate. Literally, it translates as "God-breathed." God gave breath to Adam, but that did not make Adam inerrant. More important, that verse cannot be referring to any book of the "New" testament, which had not been created yet. So, at best it is referring to the Jewish Bible, most likely only to the five books commonly referred to as the books of Moses.

There's more. But, questioning the inerrancy doctrine took me only so far. Then I discovered Romans 1:19-20: "19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse." NIV https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...%201:19-21

So, God reveals Herself to us with bibles or without bibles!

So, I'm learning to live paying attention to what God is making plain to me through my everyday living, through my family, my friends, total strangers, the daily newspaper and even through -gasp- those same bibles I've had so many problems with. To be consistent, I also have to admit that God can even speak to me through severely flawed people such as our previous fundy pastors, you, and even -double gasp- Myotch!

[myotch]

I’m not so sure God speaks through me. The only times I have heard the claim of God speaking “through me” (whoever “me” is), it’s been a wild attempt at manipulation.

[Workin' Mama]

You've shared some stuff that's helpful, Myotech, (although I am not sure if I would go so far as saying it was God speaking through you or not). Like the concept that forgiveness is the cancellation of a debt. When I look back at my life and think about the various people who have hurt me and hurt people that I care about -- in small ways and large -- it's helpful to say to myself, "They don't owe me anything and I don't expect anything from them. Not even an apology, not their sympathy, not their remorse, not a dime their money or a stick of furniture." And while I would love to see justice and see them in prison so they couldn't hurt anyone else, the concept that they don't owe me anything is very liberating.

We all have something to contribute to the world, if we allow ourselves to. Perhaps God speaks through us when we are not trying to speak for God, but simply being decent human beings, "fellow travelers to the grave," as Charles Dickens once said, attempting to show some kindness to each other along the way.

I also tend to agree with Ricardo -- God can speak to us through just about anything, if we listen.

But how do we know we understand the message correctly, for example, if God is speaking to us through life circumstances? I don't know. Seems like there needs to be some type of foundation or compass that we use to interpret everything else.

In fundamentalism, that foundation is the Bible. If it's not the Bible, what is it? Is it the timeless principals of the Bible, such as justice and mercy and loving one's neighbor? The life and teachings of Jesus?