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I support the business owner’s right to do this. - Printable Version

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I support the business owner’s right to do this. - myotch - 06-24-2018


Sarah Huckabee Sanders kicked out of restaurant because of owner’s moral conviction.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - Dr. Jezebel - 06-25-2018

I mean, this is what she wanted. I don't understand why she's upset about it.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - RobMille - 06-25-2018

It's not like she was thrown out for who she is as a person. She was thrown out because of her participating in kidnapping children from legal asylum seeking immigrants.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - myotch - 06-25-2018

"why" she was thrown out is irrelevant. At the most basic, we have a business owner who made a choice to follow her morality and refuse service based on that personal morality ("morality" being the business owner's own preferred justification).

I happen to agree with the business owner's morality on this issue, but not necessarily her choice. However, I do stand for her free and uninfringed agency to make such a choice and execute it, for whatever she defines as moral, in the most basic premise of free trade: voluntary transactions.

If we allow this, then we must, for the sake of consistency, give equal credence to the notion that others may act according to their moral convictions as well. After all, we cannot protect the business owner who denies service for morals you agree with, then persecute another business owner who denies service for morals you disagree with. That would essentially be inequity, no matter how you feel you are serving equality.

In order to be consistent, we must recognize that some business owners can and will make decisions on denial of service that some will find objectionable.

"Victim-blaming" aside, Dr. J., I think she does have reasons to be upset. I don't expect there to be a literal federal case made of it on Sarah's part, nor do I think that's the proper avenue to address it. I suspect that's the last we'll hear of it from her, in an acknowledge-and-move-on kind of way.

When would it be socially okay for a conserevative business owner to deny service to a Democrat spokesperson/official? What if that democrat was pro choice and the business owner felt the dem was morally culpable for many human lives that were murdered in the womb and maybe didn't deserve the latte? What if the business owner had family killed in an incident of islamofascist terror, and the dem was soft on terror? What if the libertarian business owner didn't feel like serving any myriad of conservative or liberal politicians because of their constant encroachment on the owner's life and livelihood? Where do we stop, draw the line? Maybe, we should just erase the line.

If you like or dislike the the business owner's decision, be sure to let them know. 540-464-4401

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - Dr. Jezebel - 06-25-2018

I did not victim blame. Please learn terminology before you make accusations.

This administration upheld the right of businesses to deny services. This is what they wanted. I'm not blaming anyone for anything. I'm honestly surprised SHS would be upset a business owner is exercising their right to deny service.

Also, she was given her food & drink & comped for them before being asked to leave. She wasn't actually denied anything.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - myotch - 06-26-2018

Quote:Victim blaming occurs when the victim of a crime or any wrongful act is held entirely or partially at fault for the harm that befell them.

Quote:I mean, this is what she wanted. I don’t understand why she’s upset about it.

Don’t convince me. Convince yourself. I’m already convinced otherwise.

Yes, the restaurant comped the party for pre-main course food and drinks that were delivered while the owner was in transit to eventually kick them out, after they were kicked out. And, yes, they were actually denied service and food for the main meal they had ordered.

In any situation, refusing service or partial service for an unrelated moral conviction would be professionally unacceptable in the service industry. However, I respect the business owner’s right to make bad decisions, even justified as “moral” decisions.

Translating that into the elephant in the thread: I cannot think of one Bible verse, one passage of scripture, one Catholic Church teaching, or even a fundamentalist-developed expressed doctrine that forbids making a wedding cake for or photographing a gay wedding. It’s just not the there. I don’t see the harm to Christianity in baking a cake with two grooms or two brides on top, even as I am convinced on a religious and other levels in a more traditional definition of marriage.

And I am ashamed to say in my own business, I have gone against moral conviction to get money: touching up photos for a prostitute; setting up an adult toy store. And I have not been morally convict in many areas in other business dealings that my Christian siblings might have felt conviction, i.e., picking up strippers who called for an Uber, picking up / dropping off at gay bars.

But I do understand differing sensitivities to different moral issues, even ones I with which I disagree. Voting with one’s pocketbook goes both ways - if I didn’t touch up the prostitute’s photographs, I would lose the opportunity to get paid, to expand my business and myself professionally.

So what good is it to force someone to serve a Trump official she, to some degree, hates? What good is it to force the observant orthodox Muslim to cater a halal dinner for a lesbian wedding party? To compel a Jewish baker make swastika cupcakes for a Nazi-themed frat party?

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - Workin' Mama - 06-26-2018

I agree the business owner had a right to deny service. It's her restaurant and if she didn't want SHS on the premises, that's up to her.

If I owned a restaurant, I would probably serve any individual paying customer, but that's just me. Restaurant food, and the eating and serving thereof, are morally neutral, regardless of who is eating the food. However, I would hesitate to cater to or rent my facility to a group or organization that I felt was immoral. For example, I'd probably be okay with serving dinner to an individual member of (insert immoral organization) and his family if they came to my hypothetical restaurant, as long as they paid and didn't harass other customers. But, I wouldn't cater the same organization's event or let them use my facility for a meeting, if I felt they were extremely immoral.

When it comes to the conservative baker and the gay wedding cake, I can sympathize with both sides of the argument. On one hand, the gay couple is being denied service because of who they are. On the other hand, the baker is being forced to create a product that he feels is inherently immoral. Maybe he could have compromised and sold the couple a plain cake, and let them put the topper of their choice on the top. I don't know.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - myotch - 06-27-2018

I think the wedding cake / florist / photographer situation is the business owner trying to make a political statement more than anything. Which is, of course, their right. It's the business owner's equivalent to sit-ins, protest march, other peaceful disruptions. Kind of a reverse-boycott.

In my older and arguably wiser age, I don't have much room in my life for boycotts, disruptions, demonstrations, etc., even if the cause being serviced is something I agree with. My pro-life money goes to crisis clinics, for instance, not marches on Washington or in support of an abortion clinic protest. (though my church wants to consider me in heading up our part in next year's march for life.) I'd donate to a pro-life baker's gofundme. There's ways to positively support a positive position rather than to chaotically support a negative position.

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - WalrusWrangler - 06-27-2018

When it comes to serving individuals with whom you disagree, I think showing hospitality and kindness with a soft admonition is more productive response than pointedly denying service. I support the owner's right to deny service, though, even if I think it's not the best approach.

It's a different situation from participating in something you consider immoral, though. Let's say I owned a web development business (much more likely for me than a bakery or florist). If an abortion doctor asked me to build a blog site for his gardening hobby, I would oblige, even though I considered his career choice morally repugnant. I would even aim to develop a professional relationship with him, showing him courtesy and kindness in our interactions. Given the right opportunity, I might bring up my thoughts on his job, but even then it would be with care and tact.

However, if that same person later asked me to develop an appointment scheduling site for his abortion clinic, I would decline. It wouldn't be a political statement, because I wouldn't expect him to make a fuss about it, and I wouldn't make a huge deal about it either. Instead, I would decline because my work would be used as a step in murdering a baby. Every line of code I'd write would be like splashing acid on my soul. The example can be extended to any number of situations, including baking a cake for a gay man's birthday, but not for his wedding.

It's a blurry line to walk, though, I admit. On my way into the office this morning I noticed a rainbow flag draped over my company's sign. I don't agree with it, but I'm not going to quit, raise a fuss, or even complain. Odds are I'd end up in hot water if I did anyway. So I remain silent. So when it comes to these things, I have a Romans 14:5 approach: "Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

RE: I support the business owner’s right to do this. - Miss TTU Runner-Up - 06-28-2018

I think it would have been more effective if throughout the meal each employee dropped by their table to politely explain how SHS’s boss is ruining people’s lives—maybe quoted a few verses. Perhaps she would have left on her own accord.