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Typical Fundy Rhetoric - Dr. Jezebel - 05-15-2018

A local pastor posted this (and other things in a similar tone) recently. http://gbctroyny.com/gay-liberal/ If you haven't kept up with the deliberately offensive Fundy edgelords, you'll probably find the language shocking. I did.

I wrote him an email suggesting perhaps he use less deliberately inflammatory language, and he wrote back that I'm a victim of lukewarm teaching.

Quote:Rev. Koletas,

I debated whether or not to write you, because I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist, with old time, hell-fire and brimstone preaching and an allegiance to the 1611 KJV. I'm aware of the mindset that views pushback from those outside the church as proof that the world hates the Gospel and preaching.

But hope springs eternal, and I'm a born optimist, so here we are.

First, some background. I was adopted from a Baptist children's home by staunch, Bible-believing Baptist people. I attended a church that was initially part of the GARBC but later left that fellowship because our pastor at that time felt it was getting too liberal.

I accepted Christ as my Savior at age 5, and my parents enrolled me in a Baptist Christian school beginning in Kindergarten. I went on to graduate from that Christian school and then attend and graduate from Bob Jones University. I met and married a man who became a Fundamental Baptist preacher; we were in ministry together for almost 10 years before he resigned.

I tell you all this so you understand my Biblically-immersed upbringing, my first-hand knowledge of ministry, and with the hope that you realize I'm not writing you without any knowledge of your beliefs.

Rev. Koletas, your willingness to stand for a cause is admirable. I want to be very clear that staunch faith is a wonderful thing.

That said, being unwilling to listen to others who lovingly, in good faith and with godly intentions, offer criticism is arrogance. 

The words that you used in your article to refer to the gay community are shockingly offensive. They are the equivalent of calling black people the n-word.

Jesus offended people, yes, but the only people He deliberately offended were the Pharisees and other hypocritical religious leaders. He never intentionally set out to offend those to whom He sought to minister. 

There is nothing wrong or offensive with calling a spade a spade or referring to sin as sin. I'm not suggesting you "go soft."

I understand that you, with your dedication to old time teaching, prefer to use older, even archaic definitions of words, and as such, you take umbrage at using the term gay. You state you don't wish to label vile individuals with a wholesome word. Ignoring the fact that all have sinned and as such are vile individuals in God's righteous eyes, a possible substitution for gay (and the profoundly offensive synonyms you chose to use) might be Queer. It's a term that is already used by the gay community while simultaneously having historical precedent being used to refer to those who aren't strictly heterosexual. 

At the least, please consider it. Let people be offended by the Gospel and not by deliberately chosen words designed to hurt and offend.

I know a pastor's time is precious, and I appreciate you taking the time to read this letter.

Thank you,
{Dr. Jezebel}

Quote:Dear {Dr. Jezebel},

I want to thank you for taking the time to sit down and write me your email with your concerns.  I would also like to thank you for the apparent kindness in which you wrote it.  I do appreciate giving me some of your background and that does help in trying to understand from what kind of background you are coming from and the frame of mind that you have developed over the years.  

I did not write that article, but I wholeheartedly support it all.  It was my son that wrote it.  

We have never not allowed any behaving adult from coming to our services or functions, regardless of their color, race, creed, sin, ethnicity, or perversion.  We have yet to ex-communicate (kick out) anyone from our church in the 31 years I have been pastoring this coming July.  We do not go out purposely to bash any specific group of people when we go soulwinning or visitation.  We have prayed with folks who have professed Christ out in the streets and at their homes who come from all different kinds of religions, dogmas, backgrounds, colors, ethnicities, creeds, and perversions.  One of our finest ladies in our church is someone who was a practicing Sodomite for a very long time.  She gave her testimony at church in the past and we may put it online in the future.  She would greatly differ with you.

What I am saying is that our people love Jesus, love the King James Bible, love church, and love souls.  They sincerely love souls.  We are a bunch of saved sinners trying to reach lost sinners.  We are trying to paint sin as "black" as we can and as dangerous as we can and as wicked as we can so that people who attend our services and the folks that read and listen online get as much as the justice and holiness and righteousness of God that they can in a society almost void of red-hot hellfire and damnation preaching in a lukewarm and rebellious society of the church-going folks.  I do understand your position.  But I disagree with it.  As any other church, we are not sinless. We have our problems.  We have our shortcomings.  We're sinners.  But we will not tolerate open and glorified perversions to be presented in our society without being attacked as viciously and appropriately as we possibly can.  The Capital District area of Albany, NY, is as close to Sodom and Gomorrah as one can get in this area.  The teaching in the government schools is brainwashing these young people at a rate that has overtaken normalcy and replaced it with the abnormal behaviours and thinking and pacifism that has doomed many other civilizations before us.  The least we can do is take a stand warning against this wicked and perverted generation that we find ourselves in.  

I agree with you about the arrogance of too many pastors, preachers, evangelists, and ministers who are too stubborn to listen to anyone who may disagree with them.  I have question and answer time most Sunday evenings before preaching where anyone can share a testimony or ask me any question they want about anything.  I do my best to answer all questions posed to me.  I try to listen to everybody, whether I agree with them or not, whether I like them or not.  I do my best.  I have done the same regarding your kind email.  I respectfully disagree with your kind email.  We will continue to try to reach all sinners with the gospel and we will continue to preach as hard against every sin or perversion that is making inroads into the schools, homes, churches, and governments across this land.  

With all due respect, even the Sodomites / queers / faggots / homosexuals call themselves some of these terms and use them as endearing terms.  Even blacks call themselves niggers.  I have never once called a black man a nigger.  But it is widely accepted in our society for blacks to call each other those names.  The hypocrisy and double standard is very apparent to those who do not choose to cower in fear and become traitors to the old-time religion that saw our forefathers burned at the stake for merely calling the pope the antichrist.  

Unfortunately, your thinking is the product of a lukewarm "Baptist" background that has formed your opinion.  I think that there are some old-time preachers who would disagree with your view of life when it comes to these matters.  Some of these men that come to mind are Moses, Joshua, Elijah, Josiah, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, the Apostle Paul, and Jesus Himself.

I do wish you the best.  If you have any further questions or something you would like to me to either read or look into, please do not hesitate to contact me.  God bless you.


RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - myotch - 05-15-2018

The guy is an obvious douche.

He seems to smell the foil, though; maybe had you disclosed your bisexuality or religious skepticism, there wouldn’t be the pretense of politeness and counsel from either side.

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - WalrusWrangler - 05-15-2018

We had a few of his types come through my old IFB when I was younger. They didn't shy away from saying the f-word (no, not that one) from the pulpit, and although I don't think the pastor was too keen on it, he didn't speak against it either. The only time I ever remember my dad taking us aside and saying, "the preacher was wrong," was when such a preacher said that homosexuals can't be saved. My dad made a point to let my siblings and I know that the visiting preacher was wrong, and that anyone can be saved.

Also, the way he signed his email made me think that he was just kidding. It confused me for a sec.

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - myotch - 05-15-2018

Political correctness in the gentrification of his preferred terms would only serve to mask what he intends to say. Which do you find more problematic, his terminology or the doctrine to which he holds?

Best not to pander to such people.

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - Dr. Jezebel - 05-15-2018

(05-15-2018, 07:59 AM)myotch Wrote: The guy is an obvious douche.

He seems to smell the foil, though; maybe had you disclosed your bisexuality or religious skepticism, there wouldn’t be the pretense of politeness and counsel from either side.

I didn't disclose my atheism or sexual identity, because I knew he'd immediately dismiss anything I said when honestly, the opposite should occur. Regardless, there was no pretense of politeness or counsel on my side, and I wouldn't presume that his politeness was pretense either.

I do know that disclosing my current beliefs would immediately invalidate anything I said, since it would obviously be the Devil speaking through my wanton lips.

I had the... experience of taking a client to his church on Mother's Day, where I was pressured to stay for services despite having work obligations with another client (they truly wanted her to rearrange her day on the spur of the moment) and offered a gospel tract until I trotted out my Baptist cred.

I was surprised at how much religious trauma came to the surface after the 10 or so minutes of interaction with Fundies. Definitely something I need to work on healing, especially because I thought I'd made more progress than that.

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - myotch - 05-15-2018

Yeah, revisiting fundamentalism has had a similar effect on me.

I would suggest that you are as unopen to persuasion to his publicly-established ideology as he is to your hidden (to him) ideology; and you are just as vested in your ideology as he is his.

Did you expect from him “I never thought about it that way. I must change my language henceforth!”?

Methinks expecting political correctness from people who celebrate dissent from political correctness is merely an exercise in sharing how offensive he is. Isn’t the response you received kind of what you were after in the first place?

I mean, I get -why- you didn’t disclose your sexuality and skepticism, while highlighting your Fundy bona fides. But all that only makes sense if you are trying to elicit an offense from him. What else was the dupe supposed to say? (Dupe, as in the one who was duped: staunch faith in wonderful? Call a sin a sin? We’re you there with Godly intentions? C’mon, now. At some point, isn’t it like riling up a special needs kid for your own amusement?

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - WalrusWrangler - 05-15-2018

I mostly understand where Dr. Jez was coming from. When I talk to my fundy friends and family about more periphery matters, I still typically use KJV passages and such to talk to them. I don't bring up that I use modern versions, or listen to modern music, or drink alcohol, or whatever else, while at the same time often reminding them that I sat under the same preaching, teaching, and religious atmosphere as they have. A common tactic they employ is, "Well, you just don't have the experience I do." Reminding them that I do is helpful. (Also, that approach is not unique to the IFB, but it is often found there).

Similarly, when I'm sharing my faith with a Muslim, I may not mention right off that Jesus is the Son of God. That's a major stumbling block to them. I won't deny it if they ask, and eventually we'll need to broach the subject if a full understanding is to be achieved. However, I wouldn't throw it on the table to start, because it's a good way to impede further discussion. Finding a good common ground (Jesus is a prophet and teacher), moving to more unfamiliar territory (Jesus died to take away sins because we couldn't earn salvation), and finally tackling harder sticking points (Jesus is the Son of God) is a more sound method of conversation.

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - myotch - 05-15-2018

I suppose.

I think the takeaway from Dr. J’s experience here is that the guy responded according to his character, ideology, and nature, and that nothing surprising came out of his response. And obviously, not disclosing some of Dr. J’s connection to the intersection of religious faith and homosexuality did very little in opening his mind to softer language.

I get it. After I became Catholic, I put myself in situations where I got to flaunt my new Catholic duds in front of fundies, “get offended” by those who would challenge me. I would even pick the doctrinal fights jus so I could challenge myself (I know, shocking spoiler alert).

I think there comes a point in being ______ that one must try to enjoy ‘being’ instead of constantly enduring disappointed about some nobody who doesn’t like the ______. Once I reached that point, it doesn’t matter which of my relatives says something stupid about Catholicism at the Christmas party, what some Fundy preacher said about us in Sunday Service, or even if the Fundy pastor reprimanded me by name at my mom’s funeral service in front of everyone (though I am pleased that mother would have been pleased, it was a fitting way to honor her).. I know what peace I find in who and how I am in this moment. There’s bigger things going on in my life without me trying to personally change others one at a time.

I take the direct route when talking about, well, anything. It serves me well. Sometimes it serves to unexpectedly disarm. The Afghani Muslim that works with us likes to ask me questions - what is this Easter? Why do you have ashes on your forehead? So, I tell him straight up. , but then I let him know that I know what Muslims believe about these things - Lent is our period of fasting, not nearly as stringent as your Ramadan.... Easter is wa celebration of Jesus being raised from the dead, I know Islam teaches Jesus never dies, but this is the Christian belief.... Omer is impressed I know anything about Islam, and seems pleased. And he in turn asks many questions about Christianity.

One thing religions tend to respect is honesty. And if you are dishonest, it’s just a matter of time before you are found out. Imagine our Fundy preacher was actually intrigued by Dr. J’s reasoning. They stayed in touch. Then comes the day he finds out she’s an atheist bi. Will he not feel deceived, that she approached him with an agenda? That some of her words were not heartfelt but were deceptive?

Typical Fundy Rhetoric - EnlightenedMK - 05-15-2018

Ugh... nearly puked reading that diatribe! Sounds like something one of my brothers could have written...it’s so sad that they feel they have to use the most offensive language possible to describe someone and then manage to claim to do it in love... shudder.

To think that if we are respectful of them and their “choices” then we somehow validate those choices and excuse their “sin” is so disturbing.

I think that there is a balance that can be kept where you can hold to your beliefs without resorting to name calling and hatred.

The comparison of thieves and accountants is just insane!

Typical fundy writing though, name calling, shaming, no solutions and faulty comparisons.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RE: Typical Fundy Rhetoric - Dr. Jezebel - 05-15-2018

I didn't expect him to suddenly change his mind, no. I'm not continuing a conversation with this man, because it would be pointless.

But there was absolutely no harm and possibly some good that may still come from my planting a seed or two.

Sometimes we do things because conscience dictates, not because we're looking to persuade.