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Beverly Hyles & Submission - pastor's wife - 09-18-2017

I didn't go to Hyles nor did I attend a Hyles-connected church, but I have friends who did.  I've heard that Jack Hyles' widow recently passed away.  I really appreciated this blog post about her:  
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=18167

The author writes this:  "Submission became more important than charity, compassion, personal integrity, courage, or honor."  Wow.  That really hit me because, while we were encouraged to display so many virtues, it did seem, for women at least, that being submissive was the most important.  But WHY?  Why should submission (and I could extend that into being "nice") more important than those other virtues?  That list is a thrilling list - charity, compassion, integrity, courage, honor.  Yet as women, we were encouraged most to be docile and submissive.  

I suppose I could have put this under the general theology forum, but, as often seems to happen to me, I can't decide where a post would best fit.  But, anyway, does anyone want to ruminate about why (or how) submission because the MOST important trait for a "good Christian woman" to have?


Beverly Hyles & Submission - Rulebreaker - 09-18-2017

Ugh- I find that sentiment sad.

Maybe it's tied into the reason why women in fundy churches don't pray in services, say amen, hold leadership positions, are generally brushed aside in matters of intellectual theology, etc.

There are verses regarding submission and women not being over men, being quiet etc. Those are up for interpretation but on how it became the MOST important to certain people? Well if I had to guess, some insecure fundy dude probably preached it to death from the pulpit until it was always at the forefront of women's minds and it just snowballed from there.

It follows a theme with other fundies I know who take their interpretation of a scripture and raise it above all else. They make their interpretation infallible. It becomes their hill to die on, their soapbox, constantly focusing and putting great stress on a subject that Jesus never did.



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RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - co_heir - 09-18-2017

I believe, and have seen first hand evidence, that many in the church pushed submission because it made it easier for the men in charge to live as kings of their castle and lords of the church. Things haven't changed that much in many parts of the church, but there are some who see submission of wives as part of the submission that all believers are to have to one another, including husbands submitting to their wives by sacrificially loving them like Jesus loved the church, being willing to give themselves up for the good of their wives.


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - The Inimitable Lady Semp - 09-18-2017

(09-18-2017, 05:58 PM)pastor Wrote: I didn't go to Hyles nor did I attend a Hyles-connected church, but I have friends who did.  I've heard that Jack Hyles' widow recently passed away.  I really appreciated this blog post about her:  
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=18167

The author writes this:  "Submission became more important than charity, compassion, personal integrity, courage, or honor."  Wow.  That really hit me because, while we were encouraged to display so many virtues, it did seem, for women at least, that being submissive was the most important.  But WHY?  Why should submission (and I could extend that into being "nice") more important than those other virtues?  That list is a thrilling list - charity, compassion, integrity, courage, honor.  Yet as women, we were encouraged most to be docile and submissive.  

I suppose I could have put this under the general theology forum, but, as often seems to happen to me, I can't decide where a post would best fit.  But, anyway, does anyone want to ruminate about why (or how) submission because the MOST important trait for a "good Christian woman" to have?

Why?  

Because if you have people conned into being submissive and obedient, then you can make them do what you want.   You have people to do your bidding.  No one will complain.  Complaining makes you one of the outsiders.  No one wants to be an outsider.  

It's a power trip in an inherently misogynistic culture.


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - BigRed1 - 09-18-2017

Weak and unintelligent men fear strong and intelligent women.


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - Workin' Mama - 09-18-2017

Ugh! Thinking of yourself as a doormat is so miserable, even if you're married to someone who has the decency not to trample on you or wipe his feet on you.

People have given some really good answers to the question already; here's my two cents as to why female leaders in fundamentalism harp on submission so much.

1. Submission is about self-denial.
Truth (in my opinion): living the Christian life is not always about doing what feels good; sometimes we have to practice temporary self-denial in order to achieve personal growth or to serve others. But there is also the need to balance self-denial with self-care and following our God-given instincts.
Fundy falsehood: making self-denial an end in of itself -- the more miserable you can make yourself, the more "godly" you are. Surely there is no one more miserable than an intelligent, capable adult who feels that she must obey another adult 24/7 in all aspects of her life.

2. Teaching on submission gains the applause of those in power (the powerful men in the cult) for the individual women who teach it. This is common within any oppressed demographic group. Sexist men approve of women who are critical of other women and tell them to stay in their places. Racist whites applaud black people who are critical of the black community. People who are anti-immigration applaud hispanics who speak out against illegal immigration. Anti-LGTB groups applaud LGTB individuals who are critical of the LGTB movement. The list goes on.  Point being, that an individual who belongs to an oppressed group can gain individual power and approval be upholding the oppressive regime. An individual woman within the IFB movement can gain approval, power, and recognition within the cult by keeping other women down. In the same way, a man who is part of the laity can gain the approval of the leadership by encouraging other men to submit to the leadership.

3. It gives female speakers within the IFB something uniquely "feminine" to talk about. An IFB woman invited to speak at a ladies' conference usually tries to speak about a topic that she feels uniquely pertains to women, rather than just covering the same topics that male preachers talk about. Since women rarely have the opportunity to preach or teach (even to other women), they may feel a need to justify their significance. Otherwise, why go to a ladies' conference? Why not just go listen to a male preacher, who has a lot more speaking experience and fame?

4. Spiritual laziness. Absolute submission sometimes appeals to the flesh.  On some level it is easier to put a man (such as one's father, husband, or pastor) on a pedestal and worship him, flawed though he may be, than it is to seek God, to pursue real Christian virtues, to help the needy, etc. Being a godly woman takes grit and courage to go against the grain and against the power systems of this world. I could go on all day about women like the Hebrew midwives, Deborah, Jael, Abigail, the women at the tomb of Jesus, Joan of Arc, Corrie ten Boom, Mother Theresa, etc., but don't even get me started.

5. Mental laziness. Why be an adult who has to make big decisions and take responsibility for the consequences thereof when you can turf all that to your husband? (Ananias and Saphira, anyone?)

6. They are parroting what they've been taught. It is common for women in oppressive, misogynistic environments to internalize misogyny. If you have been taught your whole life that you are inferior and your purpose is to serve men, it takes a lot of effort to overcome that thinking.

7. Last but not least, oppressive patriarchal groups thrive on controlling women, women's bodies, and women's reproductive lives. The hand that rocks the cradle shapes the world, or so the saying goes. If you can control young mothers and their babies, you are securing the next generation of cult members. In other words, it helps perpetuate the system. I think this is the same reason behind the harsh, early child discipline methods that are popular is so many fundamentalist groups.

I will say on a personal note, that I found fundamentalism more tolerable when I was younger, single, and childless. It was when I became a wife and a new mother that the pressure (and invasion into my personal life) really increased -- pressure to interact with my husband in a certain way, pressure to parent in a certain way, pressure to be a certain kind of family.


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - Natalie - 09-19-2017

(09-18-2017, 07:50 PM)co_heir Wrote: I believe, and have seen first hand evidence, that many in the church pushed submission because it made it easier for the men in charge to live as kings of their castle and lords of the church.

^This^


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - James33 - 09-19-2017

(09-18-2017, 05:58 PM)pastor Wrote: I didn't go to Hyles nor did I attend a Hyles-connected church, but I have friends who did.  I've heard that Jack Hyles' widow recently passed away.  I really appreciated this blog post about her:  
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=18167

The author writes this:  "Submission became more important than charity, compassion, personal integrity, courage, or honor."  Wow.  That really hit me because, while we were encouraged to display so many virtues, it did seem, for women at least, that being submissive was the most important.  But WHY?  Why should submission (and I could extend that into being "nice") more important than those other virtues?  That list is a thrilling list - charity, compassion, integrity, courage, honor.  Yet as women, we were encouraged most to be docile and submissive.  

I suppose I could have put this under the general theology forum, but, as often seems to happen to me, I can't decide where a post would best fit.  But, anyway, does anyone want to ruminate about why (or how) submission because the MOST important trait for a "good Christian woman" to have?

Just read the article. What the fuck is wrong with this blogger, is he saying she's equally to blame?


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - The Inimitable Lady Semp - 09-19-2017

(09-19-2017, 02:35 PM)James33 Wrote:
(09-18-2017, 05:58 PM)pastor Wrote: I didn't go to Hyles nor did I attend a Hyles-connected church, but I have friends who did.  I've heard that Jack Hyles' widow recently passed away.  I really appreciated this blog post about her:  
http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/?p=18167

The author writes this:  "Submission became more important than charity, compassion, personal integrity, courage, or honor."  Wow.  That really hit me because, while we were encouraged to display so many virtues, it did seem, for women at least, that being submissive was the most important.  But WHY?  Why should submission (and I could extend that into being "nice") more important than those other virtues?  That list is a thrilling list - charity, compassion, integrity, courage, honor.  Yet as women, we were encouraged most to be docile and submissive.  

I suppose I could have put this under the general theology forum, but, as often seems to happen to me, I can't decide where a post would best fit.  But, anyway, does anyone want to ruminate about why (or how) submission because the MOST important trait for a "good Christian woman" to have?

Just read the article. What the fuck is wrong with this blogger, is he saying she's equally to blame?

Sure seems that way.

In a way, she is culpable.  In another way, she's not.  No one knows how fearful she was.  Maybe Jack beat her.  Maybe there was something else going on.  All I know, having been part of that cult, is that not everyone has the strength to get out.

It's ugly no matter how you assign the blame.  If she could have left but wouldn't, you have to wonder why.  If she could have left but didn't, you have to wonder why.  No one can say.


RE: Beverly Hyles & Submission - pastor's wife - 09-20-2017

I didn't read it as saying she's equally to blame. (I've never agreed that people who don't stand up to evil as bad as the evil people; they wouldn't be expected to stand up if the bad people hadn't been doing heinous things to start with.)

I don't think the author in any way was saying she was as bad as Jack. I think her point was that she was culpable for what she didn't do.